Curse

Mork from Ork · Aug 22, 2007, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by prism2525

EDIT: Also I suggested this elsewhere, but can't they make an invisible feature in the client that maps and compares your movement patterns if exiting the same outpost more than once? Bots would have perfectly identical movements and timings whereas legitamate players can't do that even if they try.

Problem with that is that bots use the hotkeys to move to npcs, signs, enemies, loot. A player who has been at the same run for several hours and is getting tired may also use the hotkeys (comes in handy if you are eating a sandwich with one hand and trying to play with the other). So a tired player using the hotkeys will have the same movement as a bot every step of the way.

I know I'm gonna get flames but I'm afraid things like this are gonna happen in a subscription free game. There's no real incentive for good customer service. And no money coming in to pay for it on a regular basis. I'm not saying ANet is bad people - it's just that companies are less careful if they are providing a free service than if they have to keep the customers happy to make a buck.

And I know I'm gonna really get flamed here. I really hope that ANet fixes the problems with the online store and then begins to sell extra material like the bonus missions on a regular basis or....

Keep the basic game free and supply extra premium material for a small monthly fee.

Either way there would be an incentive to them to be more careful with customer support and to keep the player happy.

/puts on fire proof jacket and ducks.

twicky_kid · Aug 22, 2007, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Anet is getting more strict with their bans. Its not that the game doesn't know your not a bot. Its easy to tell if some one is a bot. All you have to do is record their running paths in towns.

The real reason is because they make more money for banning. All the bots have to buy more accounts and Anet gets to claim you were doing bot like activity to justify the ban. Less players = less bandwidth they have to pay for and more accounts you have to buy.

Ghost Omel · Aug 22, 2007, 02:31 PM // 14:31

Takes out a flamethrower and flames incompitent fools JK

NAh i dont think they should release any Monthly fee content sorry pal you wont be ELITE in this game all got same apportunity lol Yeah to bad for you bno special item or anyhting yeah so no flame war just your idea is so umm foolish well it might be good for Subscription game slike WoW or othe rgames in that taste but GW stya they way you are better for ya communitey

Tijger · Aug 22, 2007, 02:32 PM // 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

The real reason is because they make more money for banning. All the bots have to buy more accounts and Anet gets to claim you were doing bot like activity to justify the ban. Less players = less bandwidth they have to pay for and more accounts you have to buy.

Thats a pile of steaming BS.

Anet doesnt pay for bandwidth usage, no company of any decent size does that, please refrain from talking about things you obviously are totally clueless about.

brave bern · Aug 22, 2007, 02:37 PM // 14:37

Thank You OP for bringing this to the attention of the community - I have often done things over and over in the pursuit of some "meaningless" title or other and ANETS response was very poor to say the least. - -

As to those people who say you deserve the ban because you were playing too much - maybe they would like to see this policy come to the west!

http://www.playnoevil.com/serendipit...on-notice.html

This pdf explains those rules:

http://www.playnoevil.com/serendipit...em_English.pdf
glhf

Patrick Smit · Aug 22, 2007, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tijger

Correct, they also do not need to prove anything.

One-sided terminations of licenses or contracts should be treated very carefully, and still have to live up with legal regulations. A contract or EULA containing illegal statements or contents is just invalid. For example, many house lease contracts in The Netherlands contain statements on temporary rights after one year, in court however that would be dismissed as it IS illegal. As long as a user did not break user agreements that are not in conflict with the law they cannot just terminate it.

They are doing it, but the first one that goes to court to have his rights reinstalled (just to have fun), will have a good chance, unless there are politics and business in play.

Don't get me wrong, I support ANet and the fact that they ban people for misconduct, they can just do that, but that does not make all they do legal. ANd remember this situation was about farming chests, well for no commercial reason you are gonna farm chests, they are gold sinks.

mr_groovy · Aug 22, 2007, 02:45 PM // 14:45

I'm actually sort of glad you got banned.

This shows that a Real bot (if you were telling the truth) is live for 1.5 days and get's banned =D. In the end you did get your account back ^^

BenjZee · Aug 22, 2007, 02:48 PM // 14:48

"in handy if you are eating a sandwich with one hand and trying to play with the other" omg thats the best line ever

LifeInfusion · Aug 22, 2007, 02:49 PM // 14:49

They banned you because you're doing it wrong...

The chest hunter title is not meant to be ground, more like casually opening random chest, not rezoning over and over to open the same chest.

(IMO of course)

Not to mention, it is a lot easier to get banned if you do repetitive behavior for extended periods (which I'm assuming you did).

Obviously the Arenanet policy is ban first ask questions later. It sounds wrong, but bots won't protest their innocence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Anet is getting more strict with their bans. Its not that the game doesn't know your not a bot. Its easy to tell if some one is a bot. All you have to do is record their running paths in towns.

The real reason is because they make more money for banning. All the bots have to buy more accounts and Anet gets to claim you were doing bot like activity to justify the ban. Less players = less bandwidth they have to pay for and more accounts you have to buy.

Uh they are trying to crack down on repetitive behavior from the looks of it. That in turn cuts down on bots and exploits.

They don't make money for bans since you're not supposed to make a new account if you get permabanned.

Tijger · Aug 22, 2007, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

One-sided terminations of licenses or contracts should be treated very carefully, and still have to live up with legal regulations. A contract or EULA containing illegal statements or contents is just invalid. For example, many house lease contracts in The Netherlands contain statements on temporary rights after one year, in court however that would be dismissed as it IS illegal. As long as a user did not break user agreements that are not in conflict with the law they cannot just terminate it.

They are doing it, but the first one that goes to court to have his rights reinstalled (just to have fun), will have a good chance, unless there are politics and business in play.

Don't get me wrong, I support ANet and the fact that they ban people for misconduct, they can just do that, but that does not make all they do legal.

No, you dont stand a chance and what Anet does is totally legal.

You also dont stand a chance if you buy tickets and misbehave in Disneyland and they toss you out, there are exceptions yes, if Anet bans you because you're a woman or because you are colored but unless they discriminate with intent you dont have any legal recourse.

This is NOT a shrinkwrap software EULA which has indeed rarely been checked in an EU court but something rather different, which are terms of service. This is also why Anet publishes its EULA and TOS on their website, you can read it before opening the box.
You are accessing a private network which is the same as entering a building or location owned by a private person or company, it does not matter if you paid for entry, if you break the rules they can toss you out without recourse.

Patrick Smit · Aug 22, 2007, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tijger

No, you dont stand a chance and what Anet does is totally legal.

You also dont stand a chance if you buy tickets and misbehave in Disneyland and they toss you out, there are exceptions yes, if Anet bans you because you're a woman or because you are colored but unless they discriminate with intent you dont have any legal recourse.

This is NOT a shrinkwrap software EULA which has indeed rarely been checked in an EU court but something rather different, which are terms of service. This is also why Anet publishes its EULA and TOS on their website, you can read it before opening the box.
You are accessing a private network which is the same as entering a building or location owned by a private person or company, it does not matter if you paid for entry, if you break the rules they can toss you out without recourse.

You don't read what I am stating, I agree with you that what u mention is reality and is happening, BUT if they threw you out on false accusations, having no PROOF whatsoever they will loose, because an assumption is no fact. If they threw me out of Disneyland while I was not misbehaving, I could sue there ass off and probably get some nice funding for damages suffered.

ANyway, A GM banning someone for farming chests would be a waste of time, they better spend time on "bots" that are farming random drops from mobs.

Tijger · Aug 22, 2007, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Smit

You don't read what I am stating, I agree with you that what u mention is reality and is happening, BUT if they threw you out on false accusations, having no PROOF whatsoever they will loose, because an assumption is no fact. If they threw me out of Disneyland while I was not misbehaving, I could sue there ass off and probably get some nice funding for damages suffered.

No, you wouldnt.

You accept their rules when you enter and one of the rules is this:

Quote:

(a) NC Interactive reserves the right to suspend or terminate this Agreement (including your Software license and your Account) immediately and without notice if you breach this Agreement or willfully infringe any third party intellectual property rights, or if we are unable to verify or authenticate any information you provide to us, or upon game play, chat or any player activity whatsoever which is, in our sole discretion, inappropriate and/or in violation of the spirit of the Game(s) as described in the Rules of Conduct.

Should NC Interactive decide to suspend or terminate this Agreement with a User under any circumstances, the User will lose access to your Account.

(b) You agree that if the Service or your Account is suspended, terminated or cancelled for any reason or length of time, you are not entitled to any reimbursement or refund of any fees or unused access time.

They dont have to 'prove' anything, if Anet feels you have violated their terms in spirit you are out without recourse.
As long as their decision cannot be shown to have been made on illegal grounds (like racism), you will not get anything refunded or reinstated.

zenatomiser · Aug 22, 2007, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_groovy

I'm actually sort of glad you got banned.

This shows that a Real bot (if you were telling the truth) is live for 1.5 days and get's banned =D. In the end you did get your account back ^^

I'm sorta glad too, because it shows that ANet is really doing something about bots, and im sure they do ban the 2000+ bots a week claim I'v seen around the forums. However if you went through my experience, you would be quite honestly in complete shock. It's like spending your life saving on a brand new car and then watching a tank go over it.

For those of you who talk about "real life" the point of the thread is not to talk about my gaming addiction or anyone else's it's to discuss the issues concerning incorrect bans and the methods used to stop bots.

There is plenty of grind in this game mainly added by titles, I wasn't bothered much till I created my Sin and got the titles rolling in, it was truly alot of fun doing all the vanquishing and hard mode missions. And since the favor change there are alot more grinders now, since there is a reason to get titles other than to have them/show off.

I've seen a few threads about people being banned for FFF here too, so again their "automatic behaviour" measures seemed to need an improvement. However my ban got me thinking that ANet is loosing control of the bot problem? There are now so many bots that maybe they just make profit and buy enough accounts to account for their banned accounts. Therefore ANet getting more desperate at banning them and getting more and more innocent players getting hurt in the process.

For all you non believers, I have emails and proof of the ban, but again that's not the point of the thread. And yes i am very happy I got my account back but treating people like crap after they make a mistake is simply wrong.

Also I can't stop laughing about their rules of conduct, seriously these 2 just kill me

Quote:

You may not post or communicate any player’s real world information (name, address, account name, etc.) through the Guild Wars game or on the official Guild Wars website.

Quote:

You may not use sexually explicit, harmful, threatening, abusive, defamatory, obscene, hateful, or racially or ethnically offensive language.

I'v asked my guild about the 1st one and nobody, and I mean nobody was even aware of these rules of conduct. And the amount of abuse and offensive comments you can record in ra/ha in 1 hour is amazing!

Shouldn't these rules be a bit more enforced?

Anyway I think I'll leave it that, please stop the flaming it's completely uncessary.

Patrick Smit · Aug 22, 2007, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tijger

No, you wouldnt.

You accept their rules when you enter and one of the rules is this:

They dont have to 'prove' anything, if Anet feels you have violated their terms in spirit you are out without recourse.
As long as their decision cannot be shown to have been made on illegal grounds (like racism), you will not get anything refunded or reinstated.

I will stop arguing, but a court of law is much stronger then the decision of ANet and whatever is stated in their EULA. The point is they have to be reasonable as well, otherwise a judge will not "understand" their argument. They need a proof to present to a judge, if they can't provide proof of the violation they will be held accountable for "damages". That is the basic principle of law. Remember cats in microwaves and McDonalds coffee, In the states they are much more perceptive to civilians compared to euro countries/states.

EroChrono · Aug 22, 2007, 03:53 PM // 15:53

I've had exactly the same experience, although for somewhat less.
I ran out of Altrumn Ruins twice within 10~20 to cap 2 skills.
Next I get banned, emailed them, got a reply which asked to provide my info; email, serial codes etc.
Then I get told a GM saw me showing automated behaviour so the ban stays.
I reply with a really detailed description of what I did that day, on which I get a reply with the "first time offence" stuff..

Basicly it comes down to "a GM is always right, even if you can prove you innocence to the point we believe you, the GM observation remains right".
You get unbanned, but they still consider you a cheater.. Really suck tbh

FenrirOfSleipnir · Aug 22, 2007, 03:54 PM // 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Anet is getting more strict with their bans. Its not that the game doesn't know your not a bot. Its easy to tell if some one is a bot. All you have to do is record their running paths in towns.

The real reason is because they make more money for banning. All the bots have to buy more accounts and Anet gets to claim you were doing bot like activity to justify the ban. Less players = less bandwidth they have to pay for and more accounts you have to buy.

Sorry to tell you but, when you get banned, your IP and anything that's connected to that IP (names, address, email) is banned along with it.

Go read the rules, it's in there.

Loviatar · Aug 22, 2007, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Anet is getting more strict with their bans. Its not that the game doesn't know your not a bot. Its easy to tell if some one is a bot. All you have to do is record their running paths in towns.

The real reason is because they make more money for banning. All the bots have to buy more accounts and Anet gets to claim you were doing bot like activity to justify the ban. Less players = less bandwidth they have to pay for and more accounts you have to buy.

explain the people posting here willing to buy another copy but ANET wont give them the written permission to start a new account?

profit? where?

and didnt you quit long ago with zinger?

thral · Aug 22, 2007, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by ca_aok

To be perfectly honest.... if you sit there for AN ENTIRE DAY doing a 45 second run over and over again, I'd probably ban you too. Nobody has the mental capacity to do that. I remember spending 3 hours in a row doing the presearing rurik run for exp... my brain was melting out of my ears by the end of that. Count yourself lucky that you got unbanned imo.

Try doing 12+ hours of WTS blah blah blah >< after that u see life and time in a whole different way.

Fril Estelin · Aug 22, 2007, 04:48 PM // 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by zenatomiser

However my ban got me thinking that ANet is loosing control of the bot problem?

(sorry for what happened to you, but overall you were having fun in a quite "unexpected" way as your quest for this title led you to becoming extremely repetitive; as someone said, I don't share this attitude towards the game, but I understand at the same time the right of people to behave "like bots"

)

I don't think we, however informed we are about the state of the game, can say that. There is NO way anyone can have a clear picture of the "bot threat", unless may be if you're at the core of the bot problem

Unfortunately, what happened to you is the inherent consequence of the "depth" of the problem, in the sense that GW is well architected and botters are becoming quite good. As someone funily mentioned in this thread, a single word in chat, or another action to break the repetitiveness (not looking like a random call to something, which bot can do to make the life of GMs harder), may help.

After all, from Anet's servers point of view, we are simply an IP and a long sequence of commands! They don't see (yet

) the person behind the program! I really hope your case will serve as a reminder that: 1) Anet is very serious about that issue; 2) they're not stupid (you got your account back! I understand why you'd want apologies, but I also understand why they don't have the TIME, not the WILL, to give it ... I mean try to put yourself in their shoes for at least 5 minutes, really trying to consider the depth of the issue from a more global point of view ...); 3) botters aren't stupid either (and they're not aiming at a title but TO MAKE ILLEGAL MONEY).

Hopefully, support from this forum and the GW community will help you go back to GW. They may have community relations like Gayle, but we still are the community.

MSecorsky · Aug 22, 2007, 04:52 PM // 16:52

I'm sure you're all familiar with the old "walks like a duck" saying. If you go out of your way to look like a bot (be it intentional or not) then expect to be treated as one. Considering the number of hours and days you spent doing that I would still suspect you used a bot but talked your way out of it, so now you're hoping that by posting you look innocent. Of course, that only a feeling without evidence to support it.

But consider this... for hours on end you're observed doing the exact same thing over and over. Did you not stop for a bit to eat, use the restroom, shower, etc? No breaks in your activity that would have a GM notice and clear your name? Something at all that a bot wouldn't do? Interesting.

I'm seeing (but haven't seen personally) that the great majority of bots seems to have disappeared from the major bot-spots. It's nice to know that they are on the job and getting it done against huge odds.

I'm sorry, OP, but your story does invoke a bit of suspicion.